Death for Ascension


#1

The 3 or 4 guys that just played me will appreciate the irony of this and how good rediculously strong Nash is. It absolutely nonsensical that Legion has a unit in TEDDY that is free. It might make sense if at level 14 it was still easily eliminated but it’s nearly 4000 Health and 800 damage. Far out. FREE!

I have been playing Wild Beyond (Rebel Sky) since the good old days of factories and Earthlings. Yep, I’m a veteran with a definite sense of entitlement. This, of course, has necessitated a strongly worded email or forum post for the developers more than once. My last correspondence concerned the perception I was getting they had “rebalanced” Ascension too far; the faction was now on balance the weakest overall. I am an Ascension specialist. If they tweak it I notice.

This is a very broad and difficult claim to support with empirical evidence by that I can’t say how many points damage or health any individual unit has been adjusted up or down. However, what I do have is my game play anecdotal evidence and straight up statistics.

Firstly: Reducing Storm Kestrel ability to ground only was immediately apparent. A low health unit already when it was Air/Ground pretty vulnerable but handy in combination for strong air units like Dreadnaughts, essential against stubborn ground like Fortress Mech yet importantly capable of defending itself from other Air/Ground units like Sky Sharks. Now it’s near tits on a bull.

I was going to reel off what I know about every Ascension unit but you get the point, the Devs have disabled or reduced much of the key areas that help hold centre. Now I’m barely get out of first gear against very low level Legion.

I sent an email and you want to know what they said? Ascension is strong defence and the other factions are strong attack so the game is balanced and we’re happy. As you can imagine I was WTF? Balanced. In who’s mind is a strong defence going to achieve victory in a game of 3 mins and domination. Certainly not Lao Tsu nor Level1. I respect Level1, he is a veteran and a player that has always understood the finer aspects of Rebel Sky. That’s why he’s consistently in the rankings and usually No.1 or certainly close. He is not playing Ascension. It’s a fair sign that if he’s playing any faction that it’s the dominant force of the reset.

The other thing is you only have to look at the Top 100 to see it’s not “balanced” at all. Balanced factions to me would mean an equal representation of each across the ranking system; not 1 faction being played by every player because they realise they’d not going to get higher with another of the 3. And guess what? That diabolical mismatch of unit costs, tier assignments, damage vs. health, tactics and Commander tactics is reflected just as I suggested to the devs; they’ve sabotaged Ascension. The stats below do show this clearly too.

You look at the Top 3 in isolation and yeah, balanced I’ve already spoken of Level1; great veteran player Nash so no surprise there. Erica I can’t say I know anything about Roxie and Utz, mate, still smashing me and representing Ascension. Utz is another long time player so has obviously perfected areas of the game where I have failed. So all in all balanced, right? Wrong!

The Top 10 is filled out with Roxie. Rakings 10 to 20 are Nash and Roxie again however our the only other Kuro in the Top 20 currently sits in 15. Already I can see there is absolutely no balance what-so-ever. I won’t bother with anymore detail other than to say the Ascension that is in the Top 100 are in the Bottom 50.

So consider that almost half of the Top 100 are Legion. I don’t think any one of you are sheep; you are astute and unlike myself; stubborn, you’re flexible and acted accordingly. No sour grapes on that front. I’m just incredulous the email I got took for granted that I wouldn’t know any better. This is my first rodeo.

For me I think the spread reflects that you guys that make your way to the Top 50 and beyond are smart enough to realise the faction you started with Ascension just isn’t going to cut it.

Well, if you made it this far then know this too, there once was a time when things were very different and Ascension ruled the Universe!

Gypsy, out.

Top 100 Faction Representation
Legion 46
Rogue. 25
Ascension 29


#2

Hi @GypsyKilla!

Thanks for the long, detailed post.

For sure it is our intention that all factions & commanders are balanced enough that none are useless and none are unbeatable. If one was useless, then we would have wasted many months developing that commander. Similarly, if any commander is “undefeatable” then we’ve made all the other commanders useless – and would have wasted many more months. If we found that no commander was ever being used – we’d work quickly to fix it.

The following are my own personal thoughts and not necessarily representative of the entire Wild Beyond development team. To be clear, I don’t even personally work on the part of the Wild Beyond development team which works on pvp game balance – I work on the campaign. :slight_smile:

I don’t know if exactly “equal” representation of every commander being used evenly among top players is the right goal or a representative way to measure success or a decently balanced game. Many people consider Starcraft one of the most well balanced factional RTS games of all time. In this interview, you’ll hear the game designer talk about how he never thought that having every faction used exactly evenly should be the goal. Instead, if you saw that some top player could reasonably use each faction / unit and be competitive at the highest levels then that is good enough. https://www.idlethumbs.net/designernotes/episodes/rob-pardo-part-1

I think what we’ll find is that the meta in Wild Beyond will continue to evolve over time. Certain commanders will become the most popular for a while and then people will discover the best ways to counter them. Not only will the set of cards change over time, but even if the set of units remained static, players will develop new strategies over time and the “meta will change”. The rules of Chess have been the same for hundreds of years, but as new strategies become more common the way it is played at the highest levels has changed over time. Certain “opening” strategies were very popular with the top players in the 1800s are totally different from the ones used by top players in the 2000s.


#3

Hi @S7campusLifer,

Thank you for your considered and personal insight. As one of the many players worldwide that made Starcraft the most successful RTS of all time I am quite appreciative and while not entirely my confidence in the development teams abilities is restored. If they have people like yourself, who is game savvy in the campaign office it’s a fair indication the remaining bloodline is fair gaming stock also.

I also appreciate that trends come and trends go. I do however suspect there will be significant adjustments made. I stand by my assessment of a Legion being over done. Anecdotal it may be Nash particularly is smashing my LVL 14 Ascension in a rush with LVL 8 and up; there is not a strategy I can see when relying upon the draw. With virtually nothing cheap, high damage & health in T1 & T2 it’s over before it begins.

Thanks for the reply and acknowledgement.

GypsyKilla


#4

Hi GK.

A nash-swarm can be similarly effective & annoying as a “zergrush” in starcraft. But it’s important to have at least some effective rush strategies in the game or every battle will turn into a boring WW1-style dig-in matches. Our intention is that you if you have enough T1 cards in your deck, then you can often make it past an early rush and survive to late game with higher tech tiers, and then you should be overwhelm the rush of puny legion low-tech units once they run out of steam (and cards).

Have you compared your deck to other high level players? If you have a decent set of alchemists, corrosive rain, ice acolytes along with Kuro’s blast spell, I would expect that their area effects could hold back the onslaught of Nash’s cheap cards… and sometimes give you enough time to safely tech up at which point the nash player usually shouldn’t have enough effective cards to take on your eternal warriors, soul thieves, etc.


#5

Balance changes are on the way. Details will be shared soon in our release notes.

In the meantime, I’ve found that playing is Ascension is about trying to deny their early control over the center power plants if possible. This is because allowing them to access Tech I or Tech II too early is certain death. I wouldn’t Arcane Blast a B.E.A.R. unless I can get enough energy advantage by killing off something else with it. If they try to split the middle with Grunts, then usually I’ll burn an Arcane Blast on them (with the risk that if they have Rail Dogs, I’ll probably be in trouble later). Oftentimes, if they can get close to breaking your barrier, they’ll push the advantage and flood units, but that’s when I toss down Ice Acolyte + Corrosive Rain or Freeze + Corrosive Rain to get a ton of value while a Seraph wayyy in the back clears up the rest. If you can survive that push, you’ll usually win the game––just watch out for the Reinforcements backdoor. I used to run just one Ice Acolyte, but they’re so versatile that I’ve bumped that up to two. At only 2 energy cost, you can use it to stall like a Tactic or clear small swarm units for energy value.

I know you’re very high rank, so this information might not be new to you, but I hope it helps regardless.


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